Modern XMPP project discussion - 2021-02-23

Hello

timmythomas3, hey

MattJ: how many users can a xmpp group chat handle?

That depends on a range of factors, there's no fixed limit. I know of a service with ~10K connected users in a chat... that's probably the largest I'm personally aware of

MattJ: is the 10k group functioning? XMPP can scale to handle 10k group sizes? XMPP looks better than matrix

XMPP and Matrix groups function quite differently

At least the primary group chat method used in XMPP is usually based on active connections, whereas in Matrix you tend to simply become a member of a room and that is unaffected by your connectivity

XMPP groups are usually based on a single server, Matrix groups are usually distributed across multiple

I don't consider such large group sizes very practical, in most cases... when you have that many active users in a chat it would get a bit crazy

MattJ, I feel like all the matrix + freenode stuff is really irritating. like channels that show a thousand people in them, except they're not really there.

It depends on your perspective, and what you expect the user list/participant count to show. It's not a problem to show thousands of members if technically they are subscribed to the channel, if that's what the user expects that number to be

allie, do you mean that people joining freenode channels from matrix get persisted there forever?

What you're saying is, coming from IRC where you have to be connected to be visible, it's irritating. But someone coming from the other direction may find it irritating to see only a subset of channel regulars at any given time...

That’s reasonable but yes it breaks some IRC assumptions (but those were already broken by bouncers anyway)

mathieui, that's what it looks like at times. I don't know if that's the case.

It's not a new thing either. Before Matrix people still used bouncers with IRC.

Less common with XMPP, because it had history

some freenode irc channels like #python have 4k+ users

i can join them in under 3 seconds in Gajim, works without any problems

yeah I always found Matrix to be relatively slow, but I think that's also because it's more of a graph database of all the chat interactions, contacts, messages, etc., rather than what XMPP or IRC does.

MattJ: can you have large private encrypted groups like 100 people with encryption that require an invite to join?

I've only ever had omemo group chats with like 4 people, so I have no idea how big one can go before it gets weird lol

Can XMPP support video/audio group calls with encryption with many people?

define "many"

and define "encryption"

connection is E2EE and you could have 50 people max like a big conferance call?

Or even a family group call of like 8?

I’m not sure if jitsi-meet is end-to-end or client-to-server encrypted, but I suspect it’s effectively client-to-server.

it can do 50 people if configured correctly and provided with adequate hardware etc.

but you cannot use it with run-off-the-mill XMPP clients, only with jitsi-meet.

jitsi meet is working on E2EE

XMPP servers can support the ability for 50 user video/audio calls but XMPP clients lack this integration?

XMPP servers barely have anything to do with it

they just route some negotiation stanzas to establish the WebRTC (or whatever) channels to whatever mixing thing (jitsi videobridge in the case of jitsi-meet) you use

and jitsi meet said clearly they don’t want to support standard XMPP clients

only their own webstuff

I dont expect jitsi to support xmpp, but right now it is possible to have xmpp private encrypted video/audio calls with 50 people except the XMPP clients like conversations and Dino do not support this

jitsi *is* (based on) XMPP ✏

I did not know that jitsi was based on XMPP, that is news to me

Are OMEMO and PGP message encrypts the files being sent too, or just text?

timmythomas3, I failed to parse that sentence, can you rephrase?

Are all file messages (images, audio, video and other files) sent using OMEMO and OpenPGP encrypted? Or is the file sent over unencrypted?

I know text messages with OMEMO and PGP encryption are encrypted.

with OMEMO and most implementations, files shared will be encrypted

jonas’, Jitsi Meet supports encryption nowadays https://jitsi.org/blog/e2ee/

cool

Can you have more admin controls in groups, All I see in conversations is owner and member?

It is pretty good but cn you have an owner, then admins and them members?

There's owner, admin, member, and outcast (banned)

timmythomas3, that’s exactly what exists

Must not be available in conversations app

Conversations doesn't aim to provide every feature afaik.

I imagine most private chats work fine with only owner and member affiliations

admin and outcast makes more sense in public channels, like this one, where you'd need more moderation options

Conversations doesn't aim for that kind of use afaik, there are many desktop clients that are better suited there

Does XMPP support group reading idicators? The ability to tell who read what in a small group?

yes

Zash: is this supported in conversations or dino?

timmythomas3, asking what XMPP a protocol supports is only hald of the story

you need to ask if clients support that

timmythomas3: They do. More or less.

lovetox: true. The protcol needs to handle it and then clients also for many features

Zash: in conversations and dino i am not seeing group read reciwpts in my 3 person group chat I setup. I see it for one on one DMs which is a a checkmark i think

Dino does not show anything afaik

And you need the very latest version

Maybe even the bleeding edge development version.

And the chat needs to be set up correctly. Read markers aren't used in public channels, only private chats.

But xmpp protcol/extension will support group read recipts were it will not say a message has been read once one person reads it but instead tells you who read the message in the group?

That sentence was way too long for me right now.

Conversations has a thing where it shows a small image and "has read up to here"

I'm assuming you're refering to that

Yes I will lool into the image read reciwpts exist