Modern XMPP project discussion - 2020-05-04

So we've been talking about groupchat/channel/room/whatever terminology on jabberfr@ :p

(I'm not the one who started it!)

"Error joining room modernxmpp@rooms.modernxmpp.org, reason: remote-server-timeout" apparently that's what they get when they try to join

MattJ, ^?

from where?

o/

!

> (I'm not the one who started it!)

I'm the one :)

> from where?

from my server, but seems that it's working right now

so as pep. said, we have been talking about the groupchat/channel terminology in french

and having defined terms in modernxmpp would be really helpfull

there is no clear consensus on the terminology right now, and I'd like to know if you have some advice on how to handle it. One point of view is to choose terms and try to make them the default ones. My guess is that we won't ever reach a real consensus anyway.

Discuss until you have some consensus? :)

I think there was a Summit where The Terminology was Finally Defined.

Yeah we probably won't, ever.

Zash: ahah ok I'll be dead before we got a consensus.

Rough Consensus and Running Code!

paul: same for german

wurstsalat: I thought you had defined terminology in modernxmpp, isn't it?

paul: that's no consensus, it 'intends to support discussing the translation'

aah I missed the line stating that the term in https://docs.modernxmpp.org/terminology/ are there to be discussed

so maybe doing a PR for the french column is the easiest first step, either it will trigger more discussions around the terminology or it will be accepted as this.

wurstsalat: thanks for the hint

But Channel is a no-no word for many participants of that discussion

paul: a PR is a good start I think

wurstsalat: the german column has been here for more than 14 month, and still it's not accepted, right?

I'll do a PR

I don't think there's many talks around this anymore tbh. There was lots at the beginning and as usual it faded down

paul, I'm a native English speaker, I'm mostly staying out of other language discussions, in the hopes those communities can reach some consensus and... PRs welcome :)

I think the main thing that's important is what people are used to from other mainstream apps/etc.

MattJ: cool, thanks

not what XMPP developers think is the best option

MattJ: blasphemy!

MattJ, what are "other mainstream apps/etc."? :p

channel french translation was an eavy no-go from the first feedback I had :)

Of course not all the mainstream apps are the same, but as long as you pick something that is recognisable to people I don't think it matters all that much

Which ones do you pick from ✏

Can I rename the "send" button "Tweet"? :p

paul, I'm working with some French folk at the moment, their app says 'canal' :)

ugh

Copied from Slack?

No idea, possibly

But if Slack is using it, they have how many users...?

I would have used that too, but some in jabberfr let me understand it would have raised more concern. (pep. was obviously one of them :P)

I assume WhatsApp is using something different

WhatsApp has channels I believe, but they are different

It was WhatsApp or one of the other mobile messengers

Their channels are one-way

Radio / TV channels?

Something like that, yeah

Broadcast

Which is weirdly the opposite meaning of "channel"

Tho if you go back, or in HAM contexts, radio channels are not exclusively broadcast :)

Language is fun :)

But only 0.1% of the users are going to care about the etymology of the word that we use

(most of them are here)

All languages recycle words in weird ways all the time

People adapt and learn to call things whatever

We could do that too, but it requires some amount of popularity

don’t tempt me

paul, for german I also compiled a list to see what various clients are using at the moment https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/blob/draft/docs/translation-discussion.md

MattJ: PR opened

> Copied from Slack? Channel was already used with IRC

wurstsalat: aah nice, I'll try to do that too

wurstsalat, hah that's the page I was looking for

at the bottom there are some french terms pep. suggested to me at the time

kris, having never reached widespread adoption, IRC unfortunately doesn't count :)

But yes, obviously that's where they inherited the term from

You mean not anymore? IRC used to be hugely popular

I disagree that it hasn't reached widespread adoption. It's just not among the right target :p

kris, not amongst the general population

Sure, at some point in history 90% of the people on the internet were probably on IRC

Yes amongst the general internet using population at that point in time :p

Exactly :)

These days technology is no longer limited to just technical people

Sometimes I'm happy about this, sometimes less..

It raises lots of questions spanning philosophy, sociology and anthropology... but OT :)

(just about)

Still, IRC and radio communications are valid prior art

Question is, do people still associate "channel" with any-to-any communication?

or whatever word you pick

It's a matter of perspective

The thing about channels is that they are mostly a source of information

Or can you teach them?

Channels are open and topic-based

Most people in a channel lurk most of the time

Just consuming stuff from the channel

The other option would be "room" I guess

Yes, room was another candidate

But I think room translates badly

It's fairly out of favour at the moment, most things stopped using the term "chat room" in the 90s/00s

Zash: I'm of course no designer or close to that but I think it's mostly a matter of reaching lots of people and getting that into usage.. the actual term doesn't matter that much :x

However many people are familiar with the concept, it has been around a long time

In german for example "chatroom" as in English is widely understood, but the translation makes no sense.

hat room

cat room

perfect

hat and cat rooms. all other terms are obsolete

but no hats for rooms yet?

Soon™ ✏

chat ("cat" in french) was a funny thing to hear from older people when it all started to become popular

pronounced /ʃɑ/ and not /tʃat/

paul, fyi, looks like your server isn't reachable over ipv6 from here, combined with having a timeout that's shorter than the TCP timeout

Also dialback? in 2020? That's not modern! :P

Zash, LE is not modern?

(as in, they use the same principles) ✏

Or has the cert expired?

Looks fine from here

Zash: thanks for the information, I'll look into that

reminds me to implement v4/v6 checks on observe.jabber.network

and that I need to fix ipv6-{drop,reject}.badxmpp.eu

:)

What's the state of happy-eyeballs in prosody? :p

Everyone has their own half-done WIP I think, but that's a topic for the actual Prosody room :)

Ich würde mich an der deutschen Wortfindung beteiligen, wenn die diesbez. Diskussion auch in Deutsch stattfindet. Es gab auch schonmal eine Umfrage im öffentlichen Chat zu "Jabber(XMPP)": xmpp:conversations@conference.jabber.de?join