Modern XMPP project discussion - 2019-10-21


  1. lovetox

    whats your opinion on "read state", how should apps display this in a groupchat

  2. lovetox

    today i looked at whatsapp, they show on every message exactly what users "read" that message

  3. lovetox

    But im not sure about their protocol, i think they send a read message for every message maybe?

  4. lovetox

    the way we do it now, we send a read marker for a message-id, and then the client should assum from that everything before was also read

  5. lovetox

    but this is quite hard. Say i have a chat that goes back a year, a user joins and sends a read marker for the last message in the muc

  6. lovetox

    does this mean he has read the last year of history?

  7. lovetox

    should i show now on every message "User X has read this"

  8. Ge0rG

    that's the difference between 0184 and 0333

  9. Zash

    Isn't 333 also per individual message?

  10. lovetox

    no

  11. Ge0rG

    we should have a third one, per-thread.

  12. MattJ

    It's two different models of unread tracking

  13. Zash

    https://engineering.fb.com/production-engineering/building-mobile-first-infrastructure-for-messenger/ related and iirc sane

  14. MattJ

    I think yaxim is quite unusual in that it actually does track per message

  15. MattJ

    Yeah, Facebook only tracks the latest (un)read with a pointer

  16. MattJ

    which is the 333 style

  17. Ge0rG

    MattJ: it's more weird than that. It will locally mark as read per message based on what you've seen, but it will assume the full history as read if you send from another device

  18. MattJ

    Both have their advantages

  19. MattJ

    Slack's unread handling is so very annoying

  20. MattJ

    Also around here is the land of the "What does 'read' mean?" debate

  21. lovetox

    i dont see anything relevant in that article

  22. lovetox

    thats about how to keep storage and APP (whatever that is) in sync

  23. lovetox

    im talking about how read markers should be displayed to the user

  24. lovetox

    easiest way is probably the "X read up until here"

  25. lovetox

    thats exactly what you can do with 0333

  26. Ge0rG

    Riot/Web will display a set of avatar bubbles on the right side

  27. Zash

    Doesn't Conversations do that kind of thing too?

  28. lovetox

    yes, im asking myself if i can do more than that

  29. pep.

    Zash: yeah similar in groupchats iirc

  30. lovetox

    but everything else seems quite hard with that kind of protocol

  31. lovetox

    also its conceptually very different to receipts

  32. lovetox

    where i can indeed track every message and who received it

  33. lovetox

    so those two need a different storage model

  34. Ge0rG

    I wish we had built multi-receipts into 0184

  35. lovetox

    on receipts ijust log message-id / jid

  36. lovetox

    on read markers, i log last-message-id / jid

  37. Ge0rG

    there is an issue with markers when your recipient lost a subset of what you sent, i.e. due to s2s issues

  38. Zash

    receipt on addition to MAM!

  39. Ge0rG

    Zash: I've been thinking about that, but no, please not.

  40. lovetox

    but maybe i do this..

  41. lovetox

    then showing only diplay marker on the messages where at least on person is currently

  42. lovetox

    maybe whatsapp went overboard with that

  43. lovetox

    really it only means "displayed"

  44. Link Mauve

    lovetox, note also the social issues with read messages.

  45. lovetox

    the device displayed it, nothing can be said about "read"

  46. Link Mauve

    Which is the main reason why I would never want it to be implemented anywhere.

  47. lovetox

    so maybe we should not go too much into detail like showing it on every message

  48. lovetox

    as if we had proove they read that

  49. Link Mauve

    It creates the expectation that the recipient will answer your message once they have read it.

  50. Link Mauve

    While there are many cases where this won’t happen.

  51. lovetox

    yes Link Mauve i agree

  52. Zash

    Link Mauve, +1

  53. lovetox

    i would default to OFF for that setting anyway

  54. Ge0rG

    show a confirmation dialog after each message. win-win!

  55. Zash

    "have you read this yet? [yes] [not yet, get out of the way so I can read!]"

  56. Zash

    every 3 seconds until every message is read

  57. Ge0rG

    [YES] ...more options...

  58. Zash

    'have you read "have you read this yet" yet'

  59. Roobre

    I do not think we (as a society) should cripple technology just because people have toxic relathionships

  60. Zash

    Mastodon crowd would like to have a word with you

  61. Link Mauve

    Roobre, I don’t think we (as makers) should create technology that thrives on people’s toxic relationships.

  62. Zash

    Link Mauve, but how will we get people addicted so we can get funding????

  63. Link Mauve

    Damn, my plan is once again foiled by capitalism!

  64. Roobre

    For me, read recipts are a very useful tool to see if my message was actually delivered

  65. Roobre

    But I agree with it being opt-in to both parties

  66. Zash

    Delivered ≠ read.

  67. Link Mauve

    Delivery receipts are enough for that, assuming no bug on the recipient’s software (but that’s also an assumption you have to make with read receipts).

  68. Zash

    Mmmm, ask two generals about that

  69. Daniel

    > Roobre, I don’t think we (as makers) should create technology that thrives on people’s toxic relationships. Not sure if that's what you meant. But I don't think that read markers thrive on toxic relationships

  70. Daniel

    You could make an argument that they might enable such behavior

  71. Daniel

    But they are quite useful outside toxic behavior

  72. Roobre

    Zash Ok, call them "Shown" receipts instead (?)

  73. Roobre

    Delivery means nothing nowadays, with most people having their phone in silence

  74. Roobre

    I agree with Daniel

  75. Zash

    Not lost, will be read eventually.

  76. Zash

    Async communication.

  77. Daniel

    It already didn't mean anything when people had jabber running in a screen session on a server they forgot about

  78. Zash

    Nothing means anything.

  79. Ge0rG

    Luckily, most of those forgotten clients didn't support delivery receipts... 😜

  80. lovetox

    i think in groupchats its just really spammy

  81. lovetox

    receipts and display markers

  82. Ge0rG

    lovetox: in channels they are, in group chats, they probably have value for the users

  83. Daniel

    For me they seem to work fine for relatively large private group chats

  84. lovetox

    i guess we should not worry about that, at last mobile and internet become faster and faster

  85. Zash

    serverside disco#info-based filtering would probably help there

  86. Zash

    at least with the feeling that we're wasting bandwidth :)

  87. Ge0rG

    Zash: it would help with so many aspects, that it hurts to see it's not implemented yet

  88. pep.

    Indeed