Modern XMPP project discussion - 2019-10-21

whats your opinion on "read state", how should apps display this in a groupchat

today i looked at whatsapp, they show on every message exactly what users "read" that message

But im not sure about their protocol, i think they send a read message for every message maybe?

the way we do it now, we send a read marker for a message-id, and then the client should assum from that everything before was also read

but this is quite hard. Say i have a chat that goes back a year, a user joins and sends a read marker for the last message in the muc

does this mean he has read the last year of history?

should i show now on every message "User X has read this"

that's the difference between 0184 and 0333

Isn't 333 also per individual message?

no

we should have a third one, per-thread.

It's two different models of unread tracking

https://engineering.fb.com/production-engineering/building-mobile-first-infrastructure-for-messenger/ related and iirc sane

I think yaxim is quite unusual in that it actually does track per message

Yeah, Facebook only tracks the latest (un)read with a pointer

which is the 333 style

MattJ: it's more weird than that. It will locally mark as read per message based on what you've seen, but it will assume the full history as read if you send from another device

Both have their advantages

Slack's unread handling is so very annoying

Also around here is the land of the "What does 'read' mean?" debate

i dont see anything relevant in that article

thats about how to keep storage and APP (whatever that is) in sync

im talking about how read markers should be displayed to the user

easiest way is probably the "X read up until here"

thats exactly what you can do with 0333

Riot/Web will display a set of avatar bubbles on the right side

Doesn't Conversations do that kind of thing too?

yes, im asking myself if i can do more than that

Zash: yeah similar in groupchats iirc

but everything else seems quite hard with that kind of protocol

also its conceptually very different to receipts

where i can indeed track every message and who received it

so those two need a different storage model

I wish we had built multi-receipts into 0184

on receipts ijust log message-id / jid

on read markers, i log last-message-id / jid

there is an issue with markers when your recipient lost a subset of what you sent, i.e. due to s2s issues

receipt on addition to MAM!

Zash: I've been thinking about that, but no, please not.

but maybe i do this..

then showing only diplay marker on the messages where at least on person is currently

maybe whatsapp went overboard with that

really it only means "displayed"

lovetox, note also the social issues with read messages.

the device displayed it, nothing can be said about "read"

Which is the main reason why I would never want it to be implemented anywhere.

so maybe we should not go too much into detail like showing it on every message

as if we had proove they read that

It creates the expectation that the recipient will answer your message once they have read it.

While there are many cases where this won’t happen.

yes Link Mauve i agree

Link Mauve, +1

i would default to OFF for that setting anyway

show a confirmation dialog after each message. win-win!

"have you read this yet? [yes] [not yet, get out of the way so I can read!]"

every 3 seconds until every message is read

[YES] ...more options...

'have you read "have you read this yet" yet'

I do not think we (as a society) should cripple technology just because people have toxic relathionships

Mastodon crowd would like to have a word with you

Roobre, I don’t think we (as makers) should create technology that thrives on people’s toxic relationships.

Link Mauve, but how will we get people addicted so we can get funding????

Damn, my plan is once again foiled by capitalism!

For me, read recipts are a very useful tool to see if my message was actually delivered

But I agree with it being opt-in to both parties

Delivered ≠ read.

Delivery receipts are enough for that, assuming no bug on the recipient’s software (but that’s also an assumption you have to make with read receipts).

Mmmm, ask two generals about that

> Roobre, I don’t think we (as makers) should create technology that thrives on people’s toxic relationships. Not sure if that's what you meant. But I don't think that read markers thrive on toxic relationships

You could make an argument that they might enable such behavior

But they are quite useful outside toxic behavior

Zash Ok, call them "Shown" receipts instead (?)

Delivery means nothing nowadays, with most people having their phone in silence

I agree with Daniel

Not lost, will be read eventually.

Async communication.

It already didn't mean anything when people had jabber running in a screen session on a server they forgot about

Nothing means anything.

Luckily, most of those forgotten clients didn't support delivery receipts... 😜

i think in groupchats its just really spammy

receipts and display markers

lovetox: in channels they are, in group chats, they probably have value for the users

For me they seem to work fine for relatively large private group chats

i guess we should not worry about that, at last mobile and internet become faster and faster

serverside disco#info-based filtering would probably help there

at least with the feeling that we're wasting bandwidth :)

Zash: it would help with so many aspects, that it hurts to see it's not implemented yet

Indeed