Modern XMPP project discussion - 2019-10-17

  1. MattJ A lot of anti-UI arguments on standards@
  2. MattJ I know some people remain optimistic that the XSF could eventually learn UI, but I think a long road lies ahead of that one :)
  3. Ge0rG I never anticipated 0392 to be the most controversial addition I made
  4. jonas’ something about bikesheds
  5. Ge0rG remind me next year to add some obviously absurd one.
  6. pep. When we have a number of ux competent people within the community and 5 of them are running for UX council, why not
  7. SouL UI or UX?
  8. Ge0rG U*X
  9. pep. Ugh, I don't know, design stuff
  10. Ge0rG We also need an UWPX expert.
  11. pep. :)
  12. pep. I'm meeting him tomorrow
  13. SouL Well, is not the same
  14. Ge0rG He might not be an expert in naming things, though ;)
  15. Ge0rG ,oO( luckily, I can claim innocence regarding Y.A.X.I.M. )
  16. pep. MattJ: maybe a "design" category in the CS would have been ok. Just thought of that. Even though what I said about council still holds, I was more concerned about what other people better at me at design had to say (dino people)
  17. jonas’ this should’ve been mostly addressed now though
  18. jonas’ (in '392)
  19. MattJ pep., a "Design" category in CS won't work while Council/community refuses to allow any XEPs that cover design
  20. jonas’ don’t blame council ;)
  21. jonas’ council accepted '392
  22. MattJ I don't think the "XEPs should not dictate UI" is actually a good approach to have
  23. MattJ But someone has to dictate UI, somewhere, if we're going to actually make any progress in that area
  24. MattJ er, I changed tack in the middle of my sentence, I meant to say I *do* think it's a good approach to have
  25. jonas’ the question whether the XSF is the right place is a good one to ask though
  26. SouL Why don't replace 'dictate' with 'recommend'? (I haven't read all these emails you are talking about)
  27. MattJ SouL, a number of XEPs do that already, and people just ignore those parts if necessary (which is ok-ish)
  28. MattJ 392 can't take that route, since it is pretty much 100% about visual stuff
  29. MattJ and UI is hard. So many different platforms with different styles, guidelines and capabilities
  30. MattJ and then on top of those you have the users, with different preferences and capabilities
  31. jonas’ I think XEPs can mandate UX to some part, but not UI
  32. jonas’ e.g.: "Users should be recognizable by their Avatar if it exists and by their '392 color otherwise"
  33. jonas’ UX example: "Users should be recognizable by their Avatar if it exists and by their '392 color otherwise"
  34. jonas’ UI example: "The dummy avatar should be a squircle"
  35. Ge0rG jonas’: but even that already exceeds the Council mandate
  36. SouL 392 is a nice XEP but I don't see it as a must, there are probably clients that do not use nicknames at all
  37. jonas’ SouL, '392 is not only for nicknames
  38. jonas’ not even close
  39. SouL I've only seen the use of it for nicknames
  40. jonas’ conversations uses it for roster entries, too
  41. Ge0rG right now it's use-less.
  42. Ge0rG what's the right approach to your own nickname, btw? ;)
  43. pep. “MattJ> a "Design" category in CS won't work while Council/community refuses to allow any XEPs that cover design”, yes, why I said what I said about the council still holds
  44. Ge0rG use 0392? use white/black?
  45. jonas’ Ge0rG, a platform-specific sensible color
  46. jonas’ which is in fact ideally desaturated
  47. Ge0rG jonas’: did you just introduce another axis for color values? hue, saturation, value, sensibility?
  48. jonas’ yes
  49. Ge0rG Sorry, I think I've burned out with CS-2020 faster than anticipated.
  50. jonas’ I wonder why
  51. jonas’ same thing happened to me last year
  52. jonas’ wait until Sam starts to complain that everything was too slow
  53. jonas’ then the fun really begins
  54. MattJ Just call it CS-2021 and we'll be fine
  55. jonas’ ha
  56. Ge0rG jonas’: I wonder if I should blame myself for Kev going on-list.
  57. jonas’ I wonder, too
  58. jonas’ or if I am to blame
  59. Ge0rG MattJ:
  60. jonas’ has dwd voted already?
  61. pep. MattJ: I hope we made progress towards the oob hack in 2021 :x
  62. Ge0rG jonas’: you are not, in any case.
  63. jonas’ Ge0rG, I did interrupt the thing
  64. jonas’ in another variant Kev might’ve convinced you
  65. Ge0rG jonas’: I was the one demanding a Formal Council Meeting
  66. Ge0rG jonas’: I only realized what I've done when Kev on-list'ed.
  67. Ge0rG I wouldn't have stopped before that.
  68. jonas’ same
  69. jonas’ I tried to contact him out of band about the incident, but my s2s to isode doesn’t work
  70. Ge0rG Reminds me of my s2s to 404
  71. jonas’ the name is descriptive
  72. jonas’ also this has grown extremely off-topic in this room
  73. Ge0rG jonas’: I disagree. s2s interop is surely a UX problem