Modern XMPP project discussion - 2025-04-21

Do we have data on the current state of IPv6 adoption in the public XMPP network?

I guess sjn can help there a bit, for stats

do we know if prosody/ej tend to prefer ipv6 if both are available?

happy eyeballs tend to prefer ip6 no?

Prosody follows https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8305 which gives IPv6 a 250ms head start

makes the amount of ipv4 i see in my s2s connections a little surprising

s/surprising/depressing/

well joinjabber had a couple days of downtimes because of IPv6 some time ago

so at least that is why it is disabled there. until we find out the cause that is

I've got 100% IPv4 c2s here, despite all _my_ clients and my server having IPv6 and being on the same network 😭️

Yeah but that's because we failed to configure it properly

my local network doesnt support ipv4 so that sucks, but my prosody is on my vps

slightly more ipv6 than ipv4 s2s tho, especially outgoing

https://cerdale.zash.se/s/06806487-b590-7304-a07d-e92cf8048093/b0d6fe0e-229f-46c4-8c8b-c75cb8b0c592.png

> makes the amount of ipv4 i see in my s2s connections a little surprising Huh, need to see how much I got. Then I can decide whether I can finally turn off the old legacy IP stuff.

> slightly more ipv6 than ipv4 s2s tho, especially outgoing How do you get those metrics? Is that documented? I'm currently looking into setting up a dashboard exactly like that, just not sure what I need.

https://prosody.im/doc/statistics

I use https://prosody.im/doc/modules/mod_http_openmetrics → Prometheus → Grafana

https://stats.jabberfr.org is also depressing about clients.

I think it was less bad some years ago.

https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/file/tip/misc/grafana/prosody-dashboard.json is the dashboard I use fwiw

But even for servers it’s bad.

> https://stats.jabberfr.org is also depressing about clients. 13% blabber.im, a client which has been discontinued for years

Zash, I’ve just imported your dashboard, but it has quite a few weird things: https://stats.jabberfr.org/d/y1Onovt7z/prosody

Such as the 3000% of CPU. :D

what the "A-Series"

Or the many A-Series thingies.

It isn’t present in your JSON.

Grafana version shenanigans? ✏

Ah maybe.

Probably have to tweak it a bit or update the datasource

I deleted a bunch of occurrances of "zash.se" from the sources, plus datasource and stuff that would be specific to my instance.

I was reading about SIP and CUSAX (RFC 7081) and now wondering: why are SIP+XMPP combo-clients are practically nonexistant?

alexkurisu, probably because XMPP can do the same as SIP, thanks to the Jingle extension.

So no need to implement two different protocols which do pretty much the same thing, except differently.

Same reason there are few bi-protocol XMPP and Matrix clients.

> alexkurisu, probably because XMPP can do the same as SIP, thanks to the Jingle extension. But it does not - proper conferencing is still unimplented

And those which exist are quite bad at both.

alexkurisu, Jitsi and Zoom might disagree with you.

> alexkurisu, Jitsi and Zoom might disagree with you. Their clients don't send a stream for each participant, do they?

> https://stats.jabberfr.org is also depressing about clients. I find it most depressing how many people are still using Blabber.im and Pidgin 😱 ↺

Matrix for sure uses a mixer for conferencing

Used to be Jitsi Meet in an <iframe> (powered by Prosody) back when I last looked

They changed that

Basically it depends on Livekit now

With some homegrown stuff

https://sspaeth.de/2024/11/sfu/

>> alexkurisu, probably because XMPP can do the same as SIP, thanks to the Jingle extension. > But it does not - proper conferencing is still unimplented Actually Libervia has a working but experimental Galene SFU setup. ↺

And Movim has NLnet funding to implement something like this as well. It appears there is some deal with Ejabberd which might involve a built in sfu (speculating here).

> https://stats.jabberfr.org is also depressing about clients. Almost half legacy, half IPv6

That's pretty much just like the rest of the internet

> https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/file/tip/misc/grafana/prosody-dashboard.json is the dashboard I use fwiw Perfect, thanks for sharing. I know what my evening entertainment will be.

erebion, assume it'll only work for me without tweaking ;)

> Same reason there are few bi-protocol XMPP and Matrix clients. "few"? Please list them, intrigued.

> erebion, assume it'll only work for me without tweaking ;) I don't know how to build dashboards, but'll try anyway.

erebion: pidgin might also have an outdated matrix plugin?

I've only ever found Thunderbird, and it is neither nice for Matrix, nor XMPP.

True, that also

And indeed, libpurple-matrix exists and is severly outdated and unmaintained... ✏

But weirdly enough it is the only Matrix client that does OTR for bizarre and unknown reasons.

Well, for many people matrix used to be a fancy IRC bouncer only.

what

For many people it was a fancy federated chat

Until they noticed XMPP is still out there

lol

Like I know many people that only got into Matrix because of using Freenode/Liberachat through it as running your own bouncer is a hassle. ✏

(That's how it went for me, after too many buggy annoyances. I get what they're trying to do, but I had mostly issues with it all the time I've used it...)

And OTR use on IRC is still somewhat common.

Really? I didn't know people encrypt on IRC.

erebion, Thunderbird and Chatty are the only two that come to mind.

Why don't they use a protocol with at least some security?

Right, chatty the mobile pidgin...

erebion: irc users are old fashioned

Oh, yes. Though I've never got XMPP to work with it.

Or Matrix

Completely forgot about that

> erebion: irc users are old fashioned Many say that about XMPP users

I'm sure it's mostly not that

At least not just

And it is not entirely wrong, but at least xmpp servers people actually use are mostly up to date, and not a decade behind like Libera.chat, or two decades like OFTC.

I what ways are those two behind and one more than the other? I rarely use those.

Basically IRCv3 happend, but these servers are very behind implementing it.

Libera.chat is at least trying with some basic features and a slow moving complete rewrite.

> https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/file/tip/misc/grafana/prosody-dashboard.json is the dashboard I use fwiw Yeah, does not work well, but gave me some ideas and now I'm building my own. (And finally learning how to actually use Grafana after having it running for... a couple years.) ↺

https://share.erebion.eu:5281/file_share/AhPHw_sqy2LFcHPLIpOoFzfe/68d787f7-1f34-49d6-b967-4514a03efe05.png

This is only data for about an hour for my server, as I've only just started collecting the metrics, but I have already discovered a DNS issue.

(It's always DNS)

I mean, why else would I have the reverse?

Alright, it's not mixed up data, I've just checked

weird

Why's the colors reversed for the same labels?!

IPv6 is always green, colours aren't reversed

However, Prosody seems to connect to hosts via IPv4 when it could use IPv6

Oh, labels are just in different order

erebion, since you have few remote servers, you can check in the debug logs why it ends up with IPv4 instead of IPv6.

Some just forget to publish AAAA records, some do but forget to make their server listen on INET6.

Some forget to configure their firewall to allow IPv6 traffic to those ports.

Then you can report them the issues you find and hope they’ll fix their setup.

It's still a lot of stuff, what should I grep for that could tell me why it's using IPv4?