Modern XMPP project discussion - 2025-01-26

Does anyone know if XMPP has multi-user voice/video calls?

Squeaky Latex Folf, yes, see for instance Jitsi Meet, Zoom, or Dino. All three use different protocols to achieve that though.

With various tradeoffs in server load vs. scalability.

But the former two aren't really XMPP are they?

How so?

Zoom is proprietary and not an XEP. Jitsi is not an XEP.

Unless I'm missing some context

Jitsi Meet proposed XEP-0298 and XEP-0340 at least.

These are the basis of their implementation.

Jitsi is SIP, Jitsi Meet is WebRTC, IIRC

What XEP does Dino use?

AFAIK XEP-0272, same as Empathy.

XEP-0482 as well, as a replacement for XEP-0353.

I should add that one to xmpp-parsers, and a schema.

Libervia also has it afaik, even with a prototype SFU implementation

And Movim is working on it

Most of my friends on XMPP use the following technology stack: Text chat: XMPP Voice chat: Mumble Video chat: One of the following: nginx-rtmp, SRT Live Server, MediaMTX, Broadcast-Box, SRS ✏

Those two are compatible with Dino afaik

I've never established a successful Jingle voice call with anyone on XMPP yet on desktop ✏

Only on Android

And a lot of the time there is the error of not being able to establish the connection for the call

But this is probably due to TURN shenanigans and how a lot of mobile ISPs force IPv4 on us

Works fine with Movim

So I'm forced to use GSM to this very day

GSM is kinda cool though. EDGE has just enough bandwidth for me to be able to stream my music

But GSM is technologically inferior to all the more modern stuff we have now

But VoLTE remains very broken to this day

So GSM it is for me

There, fixed: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1423

I find Jingle pretty appealing in the context of voice calls on a mobile connection. Also because XMPP has been the most technologically successful mobile-ready instant messaging protocol from my point of view.

XMPP is so far the ONLY protocol I can use on my phone that has proper notification pushing

Matrix almost completely fails on this promise

Squeaky Latex Folf, about five years ago, I’ve done a lot of Jingle video calls, at first using Jitsi Meet, and after a while also from Dino to Conversations, both worked quite well.

And ALL other instant messaging protocols I know of either do not support notification pushing (IRC), or requires Google services to do it (Discord, Signal, Telegram, etc.)

Telegram doesn't need google for notifications

Oh

Neither does signal

Guess I am not informed enough about them

I use molly and TG on a graphene profile with no google,

I stopped using Telegram many years ago

But you are correct generally

And I also stopped using Signal

Both because they are centralized

Its on my sub accounts

Exactly

And I don't trust Telegram or Moxie

Telegram could have been awesome but they decided to make stickers instead of group encryption and federation

It's kind of hard for me to take new IM federation projects seriously. Matrix is based on a living spec just like HTML5 which is very worrying to me

XMPP takes standardization very seriously which I really like

I only use XHTML

I love XML

XMPP is a strong set of standards with extendability which is ace

Only thing being a pain on group encryption

MPE I glanced at but a bit over my head to know if its decent or not, my solution was much more umm, rudimentary.

MPE?

MultiParty Encryption I believe its called?

I'll check

I can't find it now, someone else needs to chime in

MLS?

That's probably it lol

Please send a link?

MaxSan, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9420/

But there's no MLS on XMPP yet right?

OMEMO existed before MLS

But OMEMO has been considered sloppy by some cryptography expert called soatok

Yes, but MLS for xmpp is a work in progress

Soatok is a troll and not an expert

The clown even deleted a very reasonable response from the author of Omemo from the comments of his blog.

> But OMEMO has been considered sloppy by some cryptography expert called soatok Soatok considers anything and everything that isn't Signal to be sloppy and bad ↺

Signal is done pretty well, but its deliberate with it's leaks so much it pisses me off.

Can you actually register without a phone number now?

> Can you actually register without a phone number now? no

Exactly

> Both because they are centralized 👍 ↺

> And I don't trust Telegram or Moxie 👍 ↺

> Signal is done pretty well, but its deliberate with it's leaks so much it pisses me off. this isn't a criticism of Signal. The problem with Soatok's stance is that they are incapable of undestanding that not everything fits into the narrow use-case that Signal fits for. ↺

this is a fantastic explainer of how MLS works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FESp2LHd42U

nice find!

> Signal is done pretty well, but its deliberate with it's leaks so much it pisses me off. my point isn't that Signal's bad (though I don't like it), if someone was saying the same things but with XMPP being the only good platform I'd also consider him as much of an idiot as Soatok ↺